Comments on Keeping Up with the Cases: Oh, the Religion. Oh, the Rant.

Jesus died for our sins to cleanse us and make us ...

2009-04-29T19:33:00.000-05:00

Jesus died for our sins to cleanse us and make us holy. That holiness is what enables us to live a life for Him, to obey Him, which means being able (read: choosing) to spread that holiness to others. I believe that by choosing to live for Him and obey that you are holy.

I agree with Steve that it isn't confined exclusively to a personal relationship with Jesus, that is truly only one side of the same coin.

I need to tune in to this blog more often, good material Christine!

And that's your opinion, of course, Stephen. I, o...

2009-04-29T15:11:00.000-05:00

And that's your opinion, of course, Stephen. I, on the other hand, prefer to define things by what they are (or what I believe them to be) than by what they are not. For me, living a HOLY life comes through the renewing of the mind through the Holy Spririt when one accepts Jesus into his/her life (heart, whatever) And I think renewing of the mind is ALL about attitude (in line with the scripture that we are to have the same attitude of Christ ... can't remember the exact reference) Maybe that's all too simplistic. But I think that Christ died to take away our sins and to make us a new creation so that we can go out in to the world and reflect His love.

And I'm sure there is much more to holiness than my trite definition, as you have conveyed through your deep and intellectual writing. :)

How I wish I could express myself as well as you and Christine! But I think I've done an okay job.

See you soon.

My rebuttal to that would be that I don’t think yo...

2009-04-29T13:47:00.000-05:00

My rebuttal to that would be that I don’t think your definition of holiness is complete. All the things you’re talking about (virtues like patience, kindness, and compassion) might be the results of holiness. I don’t think holiness is an attitude or a state of mind, and I maintain that it is not solely or ever mainly about a relationship if you qualify that relationship as “personal”. If that’s “it”, then it extends to all good people everywhere and it doesn’t seem much for Christ to have come and died.

This obviously begs the question as to what holiness is, and I don’t have a good answer to that. I’m more comfortable defining it in terms of negation: what it is not. I know it connotes being “set apart” (in the Biblical context of the temple, priest, etc.) or “dedicated to God’s use”. Throughout the Old Testament things had to be consecrated and made holy to be in God’s presence. The priest was ritually purified so he could endure the holiness of the presence of God.

Then with the coming of Christ somehow the tables are turned and God is “going forth” into creation and making it holy. He sanctifies the body by taking on flesh; he sanctifies death by his own death (which is why Easter is such a celebration). He “reclaims” everything as holy and good and dedicated to the glory of God—as it was originally intended (Christ as the “new Adam”).

The life of a Christian—the life of holiness—is participation in this. We offer creation back up to God. We “reclaim” the created order in its essential context: relation with God. We do this in the context of the Church, the Body of Christ that he established. It is obviously personal, but it cannot be solely personal. Holiness (whatever it is) must exist in the context of the life of the Church.

I suppose this all sounds rather vague, and by now it’s certainly simply clearer to everyone and to myself that I don’t really know what holiness is. But I do know that something is wrong when I (as I did today) pass a flyer advertising a “relaxing evening of worship”. If worship is a way in which we engage holiness, then it certainly won’t be relaxing. It won’t be easy. It won’t be “soothing” or “uplifting”. But it will be real.

I just read Stephen's comments and have to comment...

2009-04-29T10:10:00.000-05:00

I just read Stephen's comments and have to comment. What I learned in growing up in the Nazarene Church was that "holiness" was taking that personal relationship with Christ out in to the world with you, whether it be in your home, school, workplace, or whatever. Holiness is about an attitude of mind and heart, striving to reflect Christ in your life. It's very much about how you treat people, showing them patience, kindness, and compassion, as you know Christ would do the same. Not sure what "corporate holiness" would be or really have to do with it, because when it comes down to it, it is very personal and MAINLY about a personal relationship with Christ and what we DO with that relationship. In my opinion, of course.

Sorry, Christine, can't give you your thrived on c...

2009-04-29T09:59:00.000-05:00

Sorry, Christine, can't give you your thrived on conflict, because I do happily agree. And I say, AMEN!!!

But I must say I do enjoy the "feeling" of peace and joy that I know only comes from knowing Christ and having the full assurance that He is in complete control of the uncertain circumstances that surrround my life. I often have this feeling and it is almost euphoric. Of course it is based on fact, not feeling, but the feeling comes from knowing the fact. Hmm ... not sure where I am going with this, but there it is anyway. (Wish I could write like you!)

And I agree that our Christianity is certainly not defined by our emotions, but it can be reflected in them and I think we need to be reminded that we are often the "only Jesus some people see" and our faith will be observed in how we handle situations that come our way. We are in control of the outward display of our emotions, no matter how "meaningless, transient, or fickle" they may be. I believe that if people know we are Christians, they are watching to see how we are different from those who do not know Christ, especially in how we react to situations. I have to remind myself of this every day in my workplace as I encounter difficult people. And I often forget! Which is why I am so thankful that "Christ died for my bad parts, too" ...

And now I'll step down from MY spiritual soapbox and get back to work.

My beef is that you used the word "inherit" when I...

2009-04-29T09:38:00.000-05:00

My beef is that you used the word "inherit" when I believe you meant "inherent" (last sentence, second paragraph).

What you're saying resonates with both my Nazarene heritage (the possibility and necessity of holiness) and the reason I moved from that heritage to the Orthodox tradition. I felt like holiness was always being discussed, praised, promoted, without actually being pursued corporately. What I mean is, I felt like I got an earful of the necessity of a "personal" holiness but that when it came down to it the church really had no idea of how to achieve this except with more talk about "personal relationship" and "ministry programs". (Note: I am NOT saying that Christianity is NOT about a personal relationship with Christ. I'm saying that it's not-- it CANNOT be-- ONLY about a personal relationship.)

Where was I going with this? Nowhere, I guess. It's just a comment.

Preach it, sister! Last Sunday in Sunday School w...

2009-04-29T08:49:00.000-05:00

Preach it, sister! Last Sunday in Sunday School we were discussing our church's doctrine of holiness and one dear soul said her friends of a different persuasian were offended by the terms "holiness" and "sanctified" and she was wondering what more contemporary words could we use. I had to jump in with the fact that those two words are scriptural. Why must we use "contemporary" words when scriptural words are timeless. I was tempted to ask her if the word "sin" offended her friends, too. Should we use something more contemporary in its place, like "mistakes"? Christ died for our mistakes? Sheesh. I better stop before someone throws something at my head to knock me off my spiritual soapbox.

Excellent post. I'm going to ponder it a little l...

2009-04-29T08:24:00.000-05:00

Excellent post. I'm going to ponder it a little longer. I do think you're right. Sorry for no conflict!